By Jeremy Barty
- Sally died suddenly; I realized my opinions of Sally had been unfair.
- I would leave next to the flowers arranged around her grave a belief I had held since I was a child.
- In her last years Sally repented (Sally turned) she turned away from her despair (Sally turned and was drawn into a more light way of living).
- Sally died searching.
- For too many Christians, Sally’s destiny was an easy judgment.
- It was a formula. It limited God’s grace.
- By grace I mean God’s unfailing commitment to love.
- Now I have a new formula.
- I believe God will save every person.
- Others, like Sally, long for this salvation, but will find it only beyond the grave
- Many like me have misunderstood salvation- we have thought it a trophy, rather than a gift, a personal achievement rather than a work of God.
- I found myself wishing God could be more like Jesus. At Sally’s funeral, I realized he was.
The dilemma in the first chapter for me is about the dilemma of changing a belief and how when we do this, it is very transformative. Especially if it involves the way we see God.
There was a realization of judgment by the “author” of Sally that he the author was unjust.That his judgment was drawn from an incomplete perspective of Sally.
This for me is the key for a good understanding of our human nature, that judgment with an incomplete perspective is in itself a part of our brokenness. This blind judgment stemming from our knowledge of good and evil is not part of our original heavenly design and results in responses that divide.
The question I would like to have answered is…Did the new held belief of the author move him to a less dual state? (More peace less tension) or is he just moving into the next dilemma? (Perhaps we should mail and ask him/them) the fact that the author needs to find a new formula to replace the existing one is a bit concerning. Life cannot easily be reduced to a set of formulas.
In her last years Sally turned away from her despair, away from some of her dark tension to a less dual, more light way of being, this for me is the evidence of the gift of salvation. This turning, because not connected to a belief in Jesus condemned her in the eyes of many Christians. Yet it could only be God (Jesus) who was drawing her towards the light (himself).
Was it not this evidence of Sally’s repentance (turning away from despair towards the light) that forced the dilemma on the “author” bringing him towards the light also, resulting in him giving up a very dual and divisive belief?
Overall, I enjoyed this chapter because it is a lesson for me in letting go of something that did not resonate for the author any longer and his willingness to risk and explore new and different possibilities based on the evidence of Gods saving grace. This chapter for me is a short story of how we get transformed into Gods likeness.
I really like this new idea (I believe God will save every person) but I must admit I am not really sure if its true or not, but what I can say is living with this belief is a much healthier way of looking at others and it shows good faith. I would prefer to leave decisions relating to these kinds of belief a mystery. For mystery eradicates dilemmas that are only caused by our need to know.
Where there is no doubt for me is that grace saves us – what I mean is that this grace (author explains as unfailing love) will return us to our Eden like state at some stage (not really sure is a return but rather that grace takes us forward into this space).
For me dilemmas are most often caused by conflicting beliefs, we want what we believe to match our feelings and what we do.
How then can we elevate belief to a superior status and disregard the evidence of the light of god in people as not equally important why is it that we say as long as you believe its ok but then not give the same reward to a godly action surely they cant be separate?
This is the same dilemma that the author faces in chapter one where his perception of God and the kind of responses he should be making are at odds, the result is a shifting of a belief that brings unity between his thoughts and responses.
I believe god will save every person, is a thought much more aligned and less dual as it includes and doesn’t divide it paints a picture of a God who has done a work at the cross that has the potential to reconcile everyone too him and as creator of the heart what father wouldn’t want to save everyone.
Nic Paton
jeremybeing
Andrew
Kim
Chad
Nic Paton said
Jeremy
You are not alone in *hoping* (rather than believing dogmatically) that “God will save every person”. Many people who take on the issues associated with the conventional doctrine of hell as everlasting punishment stop short of taking that as doctrine, and leave it rather as a hope. What we need to do is look honestly at truth, and discuss it openly and robustly. And this is not an excercise at yet another conformity.
I like the way you have framed the question, in terms of dualism: “Did the new held belief of the author move him to a less dual state?” That’s a good measure, which I embrace. We suffer from many divisions as a result of modernity: heaven-hell being amongst the most significant, and perhaps the fundamental one from which all others flow.
For me, dualism is the solidifying of duality. Life is full of opposites, and duality is therefore part of nature. But dualism is the entrenching of a view of life which separates an often demonises, creates emnity. The move towards oneness is a major theme of scripture, and universalim is perhaps its grandest expression.
Of course, along the way there is much about division and judgement as well – sheep and goats, wise and foolish, wheat and weeds, so we cannot think simplistically.
jeremybeing said
Hi Nic
Thanks for your comments. I go with dualism as the word denoting that separateness that is destructive and dual being a logical framework where we process opposites. The response of a person is difficult to read and sometimes what looks like a dogmatic response can in fact be whole and spirit led. This is where “how” the response is given (tone emotion etc) plays a critical role and this is very difficult to capture in a book. When Sally turned i would imagine “how” she responded changed, so she would not have carried as much dualism within her. This lessening of dualism is a kind of repentance which has a evidence that is more obvious to others as seen in the persons behavior. The stories that the “author” heard created a tension for him that was destructive causing him to turn in a different way by changing a belief that was causing dualism in him. For me both are forms of repentance and can be seen as evidence of moving towards living in the image and likeness of God.
I think dilemmas are a kind of invitation to repentance in both what we do(sally) and what we think (author)
Eugene Roberts said
After my first reading of this chapter I felt that it should rather have been an introduction to the book and that it was not really worth discussing. But then a few things happened to me that asked of my new found hope/belief to move from the nice to think about realm to the “what are going to do about it?”. As Jeremy noted
. My story is still happening and the question that stays with me is what my response should be to my transformation of belief. Let me tell you what happened to explain.
Thursday two weeks ago a young guy that has been playing in our band and who was quite active in our youth told our youth pastor that he no longer believed in Christianity, that he sees himself as agnostic. I spent two days thinking about what to do and feeling like I somehow failed him. His mom came to see me the following Tuesday asking for advice. While she was talking all this thoughts rushed through my head… Should I tell her that he will be saved anyway? Do I really believe that? Should he be confronted or left alone? What if he dies tomorrow? What will I tell her then? In the end I quoted the three parables that Jesus told in Luke 15 telling her that I believe God will not stop pursuing her son.
The second thing that happened was last Tuesday at an elders meeting where one of the elders mentioned how important certain things where to teach people, one of them that they will go to hell if they don’t accept Christ and are born again. I didn’t respond but again this moved this “God will save everyone” from a philosophical exercise to a belief that asks actions that correspond from me.
Jeremy sums my experience up nicely with this:
Nic Paton said
Eugene
I am excited that this excercise has such direct pastoral implications. It’s fine to bandy about “heretical” notions, but when it comes to the responsibility to love and care for those looking to you and the Shepherd of Souls, nothing is cheap.
BTW, see some of the synchronous discussions on http://www.emergingafrica.info/blog
One important word that has been with me these last few years, is “held”. When all is said an done, we are held. We are held all the way through, as well. All our doubts and fears are held. And you as pastor need to simply hold that young mans doubt. You need to maintain an unconditional friendship with him in such a way that he knows he is seen and loved, regardless of what is happening in his head. IN fact, his rejection is something to take seriously without explaining away as rebellion or whatever.
The Christ Hymn of Col 1 in the Message is as follows:
We look at this Son and see the God who cannot be seen. We look at this Son and see God’s original purpose in everything created. For everything, absolutely everything, above and below, visible and invisible, rank after rank after rank of angels—everything got started in him and finds its purpose in him. He was there before any of it came into existence and holds it all together right up to this moment. And when it comes to the church, he organizes and holds it together, like a head does a body.
He was supreme in the beginning and—leading the resurrection parade—he is supreme in the end. From beginning to end he’s there, towering far above everything, everyone. So spacious is he, so roomy, that everything of God finds its proper place in him without crowding. Not only that, but all the broken and dislocated pieces of the universe—people and things, animals and atoms—get properly fixed and fit together in vibrant harmonies, all because of his death, his blood that poured down from the cross.
jeremybeing said
Hi Eugene
Your comments for me really highlight the gap we create between our beliefs and the practical realities of our day to day living. It is easy for us to hold a belief and to use that belief to justify a reality that suits us (this is the most common way we get decieved ). Take the belief that if you dont believe in Jesus you are going to hell. The dangerous assumption here is that you can assume to know who Jesus is (Jesus claimed to be God) and then decide who is or who isn’t in or out. This then gives you a godlike status deciding what’s good and what’s evil. This kind of thinking is out of our brokeness (we fell into the knowledge of good and evil and this is what Christ is busy rescuing us from). so i would say beliefs like this tend to divide.
The beliefs i think Jesus wants us to hold are more like “I believe that we should not judge others but be light to them regardless of what they believe” this practically has a more uniting effect. When we try and recruit people to a community and we use the notion that we are right, we more than often create a community of belonging and not a community of transformation which is what the church should be. A lot of the dilemas we face today as a church is because we have tried to belong and not embraced the transformation required as followers of Jesus.
So if i was the one who had to answer the question “What my response should be to my transformation of belief?” it would be that my responses should have an underlying peace, a caring heart and a consideration of the brokenness of us all in the light of a glorius God.
Enjoy your journey i am excited with you, let go and let God
Jeremy
Eugene Roberts said
Thank you for encouragement Nic and Jeremy. I’m trying to set up a coffee date with the young guy I mentioned above. I’ll keep you posted of how it goes.
Nic, can you please publish a list of names of all who are participating in this sychroread if it’s ok with everyone. I see someone named Jennifer did a book study/review on If Grace Is True over here. Is she part of our sychroread?
P.S. Where did the word sychroread come from?
mguyton said
Here’s my take. What we need to be saved from is not a punishment imposed by God but a state of being that is spiritually schizophrenic and will be hell for all of eternity if we are permanently pressed into it. We can be permanently pressed into hell when we are intransigent to God’s grace and every gentle move the Holy Spirit makes towards liberating us causes us to be all the more hardened and resolved not to let God work in our lives or to be stubbornly insistent on taking credit for what God does since all good is God’s work alone. This is what it means to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit; it is turning up our ipods when God’s talking to us and turning them louder the more that He says and louder He speaks until we lose our hearing altogether.
As long as we are trying to rationalize our actions and prove that everything we’ve done wrong was caused by someone else harming us first, we are in slavery to sin. The main damage of sin is not the actual outward harm that we cause to another person but the lies that we have to tell ourselves to cope and move forward as rational creatures. People who have to be right all the time and base their actions on the need to affirm themselves are not only going to hell when they die but they are already experiencing it. The fiery embrace of God’s eternal communion (which is infinite bliss to those who have surrendered to Him) will be experienced by those who worship themselves as an eternity of absolute terror because they will be judged within their own minds by the knowledge that they are actively lying to God about how right they were in every action in life. The question is whether you’re able to let go of the lies you tell yourself or whether these lies get only further entrenched the more you know in one part of your consciousness how wrong they are. That’s how Pharaoh’s heart was hardened.
What the cross provides is the means by which we can say f*** it, I’m tired of trying to prove that I’m right all the time; I’m just going to be straight up and admit that I need God’s intervention or I’m lost (Isaiah 6). That moment of despair when we lose hope in ourselves and throw ourselves before the cross of Christ is the decisive transformation that Paul calls justification (or dikaio in Greek if you’re a Bible-nerd like me). What is transformed in us is the ability to let go of our lies (though it takes a whole lifetime to let go of all of them). When we decide to allow the cross to justify us as a free gift from God, what we are being saved from is the prison of keeping score all the time and making sure that everyone knows we’re right which is a really exhausting, miserable way to live (aka hell).
This decisive moment doesn’t completely liberate us from hell. But it is when we start to allow the Spirit to move in us and stop being complete obstacles to His work in our lives. This is what gives us a fighting chance to be liberated completely one day through a process Paul calls sanctification (or hagio). To be sanctified is to live for love of God alone and not need any credit for anything you do and to be so exclusively invested in God’s will that everything Satan throws at you can be turned into God’s glory. It’s an ideal state that in Methodism we say that we’re striving for (we call it Christian perfection) but it’s not necessarily a place that anyone can actually reach and sustain in this life.
I think this way of describing events is consistent with scripture. I could pull out the verses if you want. The Disney-fied version of heaven and hell that we have in America is COMPLETELY un-Biblical and a product of Satan’s infiltration of our church. So as long as your friend Sally was open to the transformative power of the Holy Spirit and not fixated on self-justification, she made it.
God’s peace be with you,
Morgan Guyton
Nic Paton said
Eugene
The writers are listed in http://inclusivemergent.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/if-grace-is-true-sychroread-2009/, but we need to update that with their URLs. You should have the email addresess in Adrews email to you. Shout if you need more.
Also, see the Blogroll sidebar.
There are a few others like yourself who are not writing, but only commenting.
Syncroread comes from syncroblog, which is a group blog posting. We made it up. We just make stuff up. That’s why our cred is so low.
Nic Paton said
Morgan
Thank you for your well considered account. I’m not going to discuss it now, if you don’t mind, because in this syncroread we are trying to step through a process together.
But I am interested in your nuanced idea of hell, you have obviously thought a lot about the issue. Can we return to this conversation in 6 weeks time? Thank you for your patience, please feel free to come alongside.
Have you read the book?
Chad said
Jeremy,
Great kick off post. I also think your pastoral question of whether or not this new view led to a “less dual” state is a good one. It is one I think we should all keep in our back pocket as we read this book together.
peace,
Chad
jeremybeing said
hi Morgan
I sense the passion in your writing as one who has lived and that is good. I am with you on your comment about Sally, if God begins something he is going to finish it and in Sally’s case he had begun. CS lewis -The Great Divorce is a book about how God works with those that have passed on and worth a read. nice interplay between heaven an hell.
thanks for your inputs
Jeremy
jeremybeing said
Hi Chad
This comment of your is vital we must not underplay how important this is, so help us if we drift off. So much of our dialogue can lead to unnecessary tension if we try to put things in boxes and give it the right or wrong sticker. lets be joyfully honest
Jeremy
Chad said
Morgan, you said: But it is when we start to allow the Spirit to move in us and stop being complete obstacles to His work in our lives.
This is crucial to our sanctification, I think. It is also a central tenant of this book we are reading and one I will be bringing to light in chapter two (next week’s discussion). One of the major tasks of the Church, the authors argue, is that we are to help remove the obstacles to grace people have. Some of us have more than others.
peace,
Chad
Nic Paton said
Chad
I look forward to your contribution.
“we are to help remove the obstacles to grace” is a very fresh approach to our sense of mission. It works much better for me that the idea of “getting people saved.”
It’d be an interesting project for a community to describe such obstacles to one another.
Eugene Roberts said
This scripture came up in our devotion time at the office and I was like whaaaat? Is that in the Bible?
jeremybeing said
Isnt it amazing how it seems we have (perhaps only me?) this continual revelation into the written word of God as if its all there in the writing but we just pick on bits and pieces to justify our rightness or others wrongness. Thats why caution is very necessary when it comes to one having the definite solution
from glory to glory daily
Jeremy
Jonathan Brink said
Eugene, that’s why I love The Message. It just gets to a deeper understanding and fresher perspective. And this pisses people off. ;-P
Nic Paton said
I love that too, Jonathan. If its surprizing or scandalous, then it’s very possibly God.